why doesn't moshe tell pharoah the truth

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Re: why doesn't moshe tell pharoah the truth

Postby Hart60 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:47 pm

Kira wrote: It says very clearly that G-d's intention wasn't simply to get the Jewish People out of Egypt. The main purpose of all the fireworks was "so that they will know that I am Hashem". The Egyptians, not the Jews. The Jews also, but mainly the Egyptians.

As far as we're concerned, at the Seder we say a poem with the refrain "It would have been enough" - at each step of the Redemption, we say, "It would have been enough". So, whatever steps G-d would have included, there would have been a Passover for us to thank Him.

In terms of Moshe lying -there are a few good answers, including: everyone understood what was being said, just it's not something that should be said out loud to a king. But it's not like there were any illusions. Moshe never said that they would come back. He did say "a journey of 3 days, and we will worship our G-d". From there to Sinai is indeed a journey of three days (the fact that it took them over a year is not a function of the distance). -Kira


Thanks Kira, I appreciate your explanation.
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Re: why doesn't moshe tell pharoah the truth

Postby Kira » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:06 pm

This is the animal we're talking about when we say, "re'em":

http://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%A7%D7% ... lla_(Okevi).jpg

-Kira
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Re: why doesn't moshe tell pharoah the truth

Postby mariaw » Mon Mar 21, 2011 2:31 pm

Thanks so much, Kira,
I hate to keep bringing the question of the "reem" or unicorn up in connection with Numbers 23.22.

The Stone Edition of Tanach in Numbers 23.22 leaves out the unicorn & just says, "It is G-d who brought them out of Egypt according to the power of His loftiness,"

Numbers doesn't mention unicorn or reem. The Hebrew word for lofty or high is "rum" pronounced room. This may have
been a mistranslation by the early king james peoples or who knows who? The word for lofty or high is nearly like the word for the
animal reem...at least that is as far as I can go with my very limited Hebrew. .I may have this wrong as well.

The word for high or lofty is often translated as meaning pride. This kind of ties in with the asherah poles or groves that Torah
speaks of in so many places. PRIDE is the problem here......

King David in Psalms 131.1 kind of addresses this problem with pride in connection with a "still & silenced soul" and then compares
his soul to a suckling child.

The modern day kings surrounding Israel have never compared their souls to a child-like innocence as is obvious by what is going on in the Middle East today. The political systems of modern nations are anything but "child-like."

Idolatry mingled with pride as well as cruelty are the problems with the world's kings as well as those who built the tower of Babel.

This "child-like" soul might also better explain the still small voice that Elijah hears in connection with his problems with Jezebel's
cruelty.

This is a huge study....and one, I believe, that leads to a better understanding of the nature of Moshiach. But I don't know.

I think King David says it best in Psalms 131.1 when he contrasts pride with the nature of his own soul.

Psalms 37.34 talks about a wicked man well rooted like a native evergreen.
King of Egypt was compared to a lofty and high tree.
I think all this kind of explains the Asherah poles and groves and the kings of nations surrounding Israel. The may not be worshiping
asherah poles or planting groves but their pride lingers as well as the disgusting way some mistreat their people.

I would love to hear comments!
mariaw
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Re: why doesn't moshe tell pharoah the truth

Postby aries » Mon Mar 21, 2011 6:32 pm

Well it is very ingenious of the Stone to translate re'em as lofty. However, all of the traditional Jewish commentators, Rashi, Ramban, Saadiah Gaon etc. translate it as an animal. Actually as you may notice the Stone chickens out on most of the animals and just writes zemer for zemer. They don't deal with things like Saadiah Gaon's translation of zemer as giraffe as a kosher animal.
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Re: why doesn't moshe tell pharoah the truth

Postby Kira » Mon Mar 21, 2011 9:04 pm

Maria, if you do a quick survey in Chronicles, you'll see that the moral and spiritual failure of all the kings is attributed to a "lofty heart", and their repentance is described as "subdued heart" (plus or minus their translation)

The absolute worst thing that a king can do is let himself believe that he is above everyone else

-Kira
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Re: why doesn't moshe tell pharoah the truth

Postby Sander » Tue Mar 22, 2011 2:49 am

mariaw wrote:I hate to keep bringing the question of the "reem" or unicorn up in connection with Numbers 23.22.

The Stone Edition of Tanach in Numbers 23.22 leaves out the unicorn & just says, "It is G-d who brought them out of Egypt according to the power of His loftiness,"

Numbers doesn't mention unicorn or reem. The Hebrew word for lofty or high is "rum" pronounced room. This may have
been a mistranslation by the early king james peoples or who knows who? The word for lofty or high is nearly like the word for the
animal reem...at least that is as far as I can go with my very limited Hebrew. .I may have this wrong as well.

The word for high or lofty is often translated as meaning pride. mariaw


According to Ernest Klein, "A comprehensive etymological dictionary of the hebrew language for readers of
english",

Re'em as a root word means to rise, to be high, occuring in Zecharia 14:10 in the form re'emah

As a masculine noun, re'em means buffalo or wild ox.

The verse in Numbers 23.22 says "toafot re'em"
Toafot means height, eminence, or strength. There is nothing here that hints about unicorns. Possibly one might translate that the eminence of an ox is the horns of the ox. Toafot re'em means strength or height of the wild ox.
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of oryxes and unicorns

Postby aries » Tue Mar 22, 2011 6:42 am

Well. The targum does say Reem is just a high place. Rashi says they are demons. The Ibn Ezra says both the animal or on high are acceptable.

Some want to say that here reem is buffalo (tao) and where its says horns of the reem in Dvarim is the oryx (septuigent). Both animals have impressive horns.

Nobody has ever found any justification for the silly translation of reem as unicorn in the King James as nobody has ever found any reason to make up a word like paragod.
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Re: why doesn't moshe tell pharoah the truth

Postby mariaw » Tue Mar 22, 2011 8:53 pm

Thank you all so very kindly for your comments.
Aries, I dismissed the unicorn nonsense along with the Easter bunny parade many years ago. :-)
Now, how can I go back to my usual religious gatherings knowing what I have learned from this forum?
I would rather enjoy being Jewish and all that goes with it, but I'm kinda stuck where I am for the present time.
But that is ok! Sometimes I don't think I'm alone.
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Re: why doesn't moshe tell pharoah the truth

Postby Kira » Tue Mar 22, 2011 9:19 pm

You are not alone! We are with you, and more importantly, G-d is with you.

-Kira
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Re: why doesn't moshe tell pharoah the truth

Postby rivka » Tue Mar 22, 2011 11:15 pm

Kira wrote:You are not alone!
Amen!
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