Feed the dog.

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Feed the dog.

Postby Sander » Wed Dec 22, 2010 11:41 am

Rabbi Bitterman said this:

If it is Friday night, and you said kiddush over wine, and then you washed your hands, and then you said the words of the blessing 'hamotzi' for the challah, and you are about to eat the challah....

AND THEN....

you suddenly remember that the dog has not eaten, you have to interrupt yourself and give the dog food. And after the dog has food, then you proceed to eat your challah.

BECAUSE....
you should know that the community is full of sin, and for the sake of the human beings G_d would not have given rain and caused the wheat to grow and provided you bread. But for the benefit of the dog that sits at the front door of your house, G-d gave you food also so that you would be able to feed the dog.
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Re: Feed the dog.

Postby aries » Thu Dec 23, 2010 10:56 am

Not so sure this halacha applies to dogs. It is not spelled out anywhere in the shulchan aruch while making a blessing for no reason or interupting a blessing is mentioned quite often.

It applies to cows or horses which have no access to food and need to eat on a regular basis. Incidently you can wink to someone at the table to feed the animal and continue to make the blessing.

Dogs in nature do not eat every day. That is the way they evolved. The problem with pet dogs and cats is overfeeding. You are probably damaging the dog by feeding him too much. I don't think one should interupt a blessing to cause damage to your pet. This is analogous to those Yeshiva people who killed off endangered species of birds by chasing away the mother so they could take the eggs (but they don't take the eggs).

I strongly recommend that one does not ask the neighbor to feed the fish if you are away for the weekend. She will probably overfeed them and kill them. Again, fish in nature do not eat every day and it is certainly healthier for them to fast one day a week.
Aryeh Shore
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Re: Feed the dog.

Postby Sander » Fri Dec 24, 2010 4:16 pm

Are you saying it is not spelled out to feed animals first?
or...
are you saying dogs are not one of the species included in the requirement to feed animals first ?
or...
the time for feeding a dog does not occur at the Friday supper, so there is not reason to interrupt the blessing ?
or...
even if the time has passed for feeding the dog and the dog is hungry, and you are obligated to feed the dog, don't pause between between making hamotzi and eating the challah?

Here is a link from chabad.org http://www.chabad.org/library/article_c ... owners.htm
in which menachem posner writes:
In fact we are required by the Torah to feed dependant animals every day before we eat ourselves. This is derived from the verse (Deuteronomy 11:15): "I will give grass in your fields for your animal, and you shall eat and be satisfied"--food for the animal is mentioned before food for oneself!


Now here is something amazing... there is a specific requirement to feed dogs.

Talmud, Brachot 40a; Gittin 62a. On the other hand, it is forbidden to feed wild animals, or any animal whose upkeep is not your responsibility, on Shabbat (Shulchan Aruch Harav Orach Chaim 324:7). The exception to this rule is wild dogs (Talmud, Shabbat 155b).
Sander
 
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Re: Feed the dog.

Postby aries » Sat Dec 25, 2010 4:22 pm

I mean feeding dogs is not mentioned in the Shulchan Aruch before you eat. Of course the ordinance is you have to feed your cow and chicken. The reason that it does not appear in the Shulchan Aruch or any commentator on the Shulchan Aruch, is because until a hundred years ago, no one ever though of having the dog as a pet inside the house. It was assumed that the dog ran free and if it was hungry it would get its own food. Therefore making the leap of feeding your cow before yourself (a very unusual ordinance in itself, and not found in the Torah) to an animal which only recently has been considered dependent on you for its food it the type of halachic reasoning that it is nice to contemplate but personally I am opposed to making up new laws as we have enough already.

However, dogs are specifically mentioned in the torah as an animal you should feed (toss it to the dogs). The value of dogs as watchdogs is also discussed in the talmud. Indeed the story that one man let the dog sit at the table because he saved his wife from burglars, shows that it was extremely unusual to let a dog in the house.
Aryeh Shore
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Re: Feed the dog.

Postby Enora » Sat Dec 25, 2010 7:01 pm

Indeed the story that one man let the dog sit at the table because he saved his wife from burglars, shows that it was extremely unusual to let a dog in the house.

And still is in many places in fact. Nobody has a "pet" dog here unless they're rich. Not because it's expensive but because the wealthy are often less religious here. (For those that don't know what I'm talking about, muslims avoid touching dogs)
So people who have dogs usually have them for a specific job (security guard, watchdog).

Moroccan jews on pets:
I had a huge issue last year when somebody dropped 2 unfixed kittens on me (some people... grr)
I was in casablanca before pessah to stock up on kosher le'pessah goods and went to the main shul to ask a cheela about spaying and neutering.
My husband is laughing at me the whole entire time because he knows what to expect from aging moroccan jews.
So I go to the shul office and ask the guy there "Is there someone competent I can ask a cheela to about certain halachot?"
-"About what? I'll answer you..."
-"Yeah but this is a specific halakha... about animals"
-"Ask me already"
-"But you are? The Rabbi?"
-"I'm the one that answers cheelot"
-"Ok whatever (like I'm gonna argue with this man), I have these two kittens, that aren't neutered or spayed.... and I'm living in an apartment and..."
-"Wait, Why do you have 2 kittens?"
-"Well my neighbor yadayadayada and now we've had them for 4 months yadayada, we're attached yadayada, in an apartment yadaya male and female yadayadayadayada, I know it's complicated with the neutering..."
-"NO NEUTERING"
-"Yes I know, which is precisely why I need to ask a cheela because I need to know how to go about..."
-"NO NO NO, there is no going about it. No neutering"
-"Yes I know but you see, they're my cats now... I live in an apartment (I did then)"
-"Well get rid of them, why do you have a cat? Ok 2 cats whatever..."
-"....but..."
-"I JUST TOLD YOU what to do, put them out in the street and get rid of them"
-"And so there's no other person to help me out here?"
-"No"
Enora
 
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neuter the cat

Postby aries » Sat Dec 25, 2010 7:30 pm

You go to the nice non-Jewish veterinarian and say I want to sell these cats. I would like to buy two cats just like them if they were neutered. Oh says the veterinarian, I will buy the two cats from you for two dinars.
Oh look you are in luck, here are two cats you can have just like the ones you had before except they are neutered.
You can have them for 22 dinars.
Oh, just what I wanted.
How could you have possibly known.
Aryeh Shore
aries
 
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Re: Feed the dog.

Postby Sander » Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:00 am

This is from http://www.chabad.org/library/article_c ... 37a1008420

On Shabbat and major Jewish holidays it is forbidden to feed stray animals.36 Stray dogs are an exception to this rule, due to their limited food sources.37 Some extend this allowance to include any animal that is actually starving.38


(The numbers in quote above are the footnote numbers. Here are the footnotes:
35. Code of Jewish Law, Yoreh De'ah 87:1.
36. Ibid., Orach Chaim 324:11.
37. Ibid.
38. Aruch Hashulchan, ibid. 2.
)

So I argue like this. A dog can fall into one of three categories:
1. Stray.
2. In my care.
3. In care of someone else.

If the dog is stray, then I am obligated to feed it on Shabbat, under the rule for stray dogs.
If the dog is in my care, then I am obligated to feed it, under the rule for dependent animals, which must be fed every day at the proper time.
That leaves only one case where I am not obligated to feed the dog - the dog is in care of someone else.
Sander
 
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Re: Feed the dog.

Postby aries » Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:59 am

What a leap of imagination.
Nobody, but I mean nobody ever suggested that one is obligated to feed stray dogs on the Shabbat. You can disposed of the scraps it a way which allows dogs to eat them. (Until very recently, dogs were considered your best garbage disposal.) It would be downright stupid to encourage stray dogs which can and do have rabies in your vicinity.
The point is that dogs are always hungry. They do not have a feeding time. It is best to feed only once a day. The dog's feeding time is therefore irrelevant to your eating time. Dogs are not mentioned in law of not eating before feeding your animals before you eat and therefore the rule that you should eat after making the blessing would be most correct since actually halacha takes precedent over supposition.
As for feeding on the Shabbat, you can readily find the debate of whether one can feed the birds on Shabat Shira which was a minhag for many centuries.
I don't see anyone doing it today.
Aryeh Shore
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Re: Feed the dog.

Postby rivka » Sun Dec 26, 2010 7:04 am

aries wrote:As for feeding on the Shabbat, you can readily find the debate of whether one can feed the birds on Shabat Shira which was a minhag for many centuries.
I don't see anyone doing it today.

Clearly, you don't have any grade-school children. ;)

Every year, they bring home projects of bird seed (glued to something, embedded in something, etc.) to hang up on Shabbos Shira.
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Re: neuter the cat

Postby Enora » Sun Dec 26, 2010 11:01 am

aries wrote:You go to the nice non-Jewish veterinarian and say I want to sell these cats. I would like to buy two cats just like them if they were neutered. Oh says the veterinarian, I will buy the two cats from you for two dinars.
Oh look you are in luck, here are two cats you can have just like the ones you had before except they are neutered.
You can have them for 22 dinars.
Oh, just what I wanted.
How could you have possibly known.


Ahhh you make things sound so easy.
1. my cheela wasn't "can I neuter them and how"... it was more complicated. Like is it ok to explain to the non jewish vet what you're doing and why?
"Hi there Mr Goy Vet I'd really like to sell these cats because they aren't fixed, I'd like to find the SAME ones fixed."
Dr stares at me
Let's try Dr. #2 - Who asks me "why can't you get it done yourself??"... so I briefly explain to the hijab wearing vet what's going on until she turns around and eyes me down asking "WHAT religion are you anyways?"
"jewish"
"Well it's forbidden for muslims too... btw you need to deworm your kid because the cat has tapeworm. He might get it from the cat"
"He doesn't eat flies and fleas nor do we eat pork or raw meat"
"What? No but he can get it from the dust"
"Bye" (where did this chick get her degree??)
3rd Dr worked out great.
Enora
 
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